You are SICK.

Date: Aug-18 To: All From: hellynmary Add to FriendsIgnore

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i read on comcast news that this retired matador came back for one last chance and ended up killing the bull and severering the bulls ears as trophies. wth? fist they antagonize these poor animals and torture them so they are helpless then yes....they go in for the kill what the hell is up with that........sick bastards. i know in the US we have PETA and other animal rights groups dont they have these in other countries as well? its sick, they are sick phucks. they pull that sheet and except respect when they come here...i think NOT!! i am just pished and shocked, i mean why is this torture allowed? im not talking about slaughtering a cow quickley to eat ,thats a whole other story for later, i mean they torture these poor animals just for kicks, its a lose lose or the poor thing laura?anna? anyone? Hells Bells

Date: Aug-18 To: All From: hellynmary Add to FriendsIgnore

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Bullfighting is called a sport, or sometimes even an art. It is neither. It is animal cruelty disguised as entertainment. Ever wonder why the bull never wins? Spectators are led to believe the matadors are actually risking their lives. In reality, the bull has already been crippled and subdued in several ways and doesn't stand a chance against its opponents. Several hours before the fight, the bull is kept in a stall, deprived of light and water. They are separated from other bulls. This is traumatic for them as bulls are naturally herd animals. Many bullfighters have reported that the bulls are also beaten and injured prior to being released into the ring. Their horns are also sometimes shaved. This involves sawing off a few inches of the horns. Bulls depend on their horns to help them navigate and shaving impairs their ability to do this. Shaving is illegal, but many get away with it. Bulls are sometimes stabbed and wounded before being released in the ring. After being released, he may be taunted by a group of humans who will frustrate him by forcing him to run in circles and collide. Men called picadors approach the exhausted bull on horseback These men drive lances into the bull's neck and back, resulting in more injuries and blood loss and disabling him from lifting his neck or head. Picadors are usually not injured. Any injuries inflicted by the confused, exhausted bull are usually to the picador's horse. The matador appears next and provokes the injured, dying bull in to weak charges. He will attempt to kill the bull with a sword but it usually only results in injuring him and resulting in more pain and blood loss. During the final stage, an executioner is called in to kill the bull by slashing his spinal cord. This is for the benefit of the audiences, and sometimes the effort is not enough to kill the bull. It's not uncommon for a tortured, paralyzed, conscious bull to be tied by his horns and dragged from the ring. Bullfighting is illegal in the United States, but US tourists greatly contribute to the practice by attending bullfights in other countries. What you can do: Boycott countries where bullfighting is legal. Contact government officials in countries where bullfighting is legal. If you are a resident, let them know you're opposed to bullfighting. If you're not a resident, let them know you are a potential tourist and will not be visiting their country until this cruel practice is outlawed. Make sure they are aware of the cruelties involved in bullfighting. Let them know that it disturbs you enough that you will not visit these countries until this "sport" is outlawed. If you must visit countries where bullfighting is legal, do not attend bullfights. Links Bullfighting The Extreme Cruelty of Bullfighting sick : ( Hells Bells

Date: Aug-18 To: All From: Sam-n-Ella Add to FriendsIgnore

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Yes, it's incredibly disgusting, and I've never understood the "sport" aspect for the life of me. But...if you think that the meat that you eat is from humanely kept animals who are killed quickly, you are very very wrong. Animals here are tortured, too- and good grief, have you ever seen how veal is "made?" They basically take a calf away from his mother and torture him FAR worse than a bull is tortured to make his meat ince and tender. You can watch the video "Meet your meat" if you're interested. And yes, even in the u.s torturing animals is considered a sport. Look at these ridiculous bird shooting events. I mean, really, where is the sport in shooting a bunch of tame cage kept birds??? And hunting itself. Yeah yeah, everyone uses the same old hackneyed "BUT WE'RE USING THE MEAT!!!!" excuse, but when it comes down to it people don't hunt because their families are starving, they hunt because they think it's fun. And that is VERY very sick...people thinking that killing animals is fun.... JMHO. Laura Sam 12/31/04 Ella 12/14/07

Date: Aug-18 To: All From: Krazycricket21 Add to FriendsIgnore

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I have to agree that this is a sick practice. #### (kock) fighting is also an incredibly popular sport over our southern boarder. It's one of those sad things that will probably never change. LOL, Laura we posted just 1 min apart. = P -Anna When i told you that i didn't want you, it was the blackest kind of Blasphemy. Gabriel 10Dec04 Damien 15Sept07 Edited Aug-18 by Krazycricket21

Date: Aug-18 To: All From: TexKitty Add to FriendsIgnore

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Third world countries. Sheesh. Animal cruelty sucks ####. KARMA. IMO, if we all had to kill animals for our meat (as in... large companies were no longer doing it for us) we'd have a lot more vegetarians in this world. That being said, DH hunts. We use the meat. ( Laura) The animals are treated humanly on our property. They are borderline spoiled rotten. When killed, they are taken quickly by a rifle. And Laura is right, we don't need the meat. We can buy it from a store. BUT, it is our choice to shoot an occasional deer and I stand behind our decision. And I actually feel better about the meat we get by taking down an animal on our property than the meat we buy from the store. KITTY Robert 12/04 Max 1/07

Date: Aug-18 To: All From: Sam-n-Ella Add to FriendsIgnore

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Your antelope???? You kill the antelope???? I thought they were pets!!! Laura Sam 12/31/04 Ella 12/14/07

Date: Aug-18 To: All From: TexKitty Add to FriendsIgnore

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We've only killed one antelope. That was back when our herd was HUGE. We had close to 30. THEN, we had an unusually cold and wet winter and lost about half the herd to sickness, and then the damn coyotes started taking down the rest. We are down to SIX antelope. We've baited the coyotes and had a trapper come in to help us. We killed ONE coyote. We just had ANOTHER baby disappear. Those damn coyotes. KITTY Robert 12/04 Max 1/07

Date: Aug-18 To: All From: IrritableGrizzly Add to FriendsIgnore

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And hunting itself. Yeah yeah, everyone uses the same old hackneyed "BUT WE'RE USING THE MEAT!!!!" excuse, but when it comes down to it people don't hunt because their families are starving, they hunt because they think it's fun. And that is VERY very sick...people thinking that killing animals is fun.... "Hackneyed"? Really? "Excuse"? Really? To me it sounds like an actual, I don't know, REASON. And not that I need to offer anyone "excuses" about the meat on our table, or the way we choose to feed our family, but honestly, I'm ticked off. It's a completely unfair and BS comparison - to compare bullfighting (which I think is sick) to hunting. So here's my VHO. You say "people thinking that killing animals is fun." Obviously, people find hunting enjoyable. But there is so much more to it that the actual killing. Actually, Laura, when it comes down to it, my husband hunts for lots of reasons. The first of which is that we stock our deep freeze and eat pretty well off the free-range, organic, locally produced deer, boar, and rabbits that my husband kills. Sorry if you think that's a "hackneyed excuse." The animals he killed actually did die instantly, or at least, very quickly and were killed humanely, after living a completely free and natural life. The other meat we eat comes from a local butcher shop or from some buffalo ranchers we know. All of it was raised within 30 miles or so of the place, and those animals are pretty much free-range, and are killed quickly. They're not injected with antibiotics or anything else. We know the farmers the meat comes from, we've seen the conditions, and I'm happy with our decision. I'm also happy to be directly supporting local economies. There's a lot of other reasons DH hunts. But one thing that a lot of people don't think about - or totally sniff at - is that you've got to actively manage property and land; you've got to manage the deer population in order to keep it healthy and in check. I know it's easy to scoff at the idea of "thinning the herd" but that's actually a sound practice. I could go on and on, but a weak, overpopulated animal population isn't good in any respect. My husband manages his parent's woods and the resident deer population; his parents own about 80 acres of woods. He knows the ideal male-female ratio, and he'll target deer accordingly. For example, if there are too many does, that's what he'll hunt for. He obviously does find hunting enjoyable. But I hope you're not suggesting that he's just out there blasting at the first thing that moves and whooping it up. Other people roll their eyes and say things like hunters are just out there "proving their manhood" or some other total BS. Yeah, there's people like that out there. But they're not the ones with well-stocked freezers. I can't tell you how much time he spends studying those woods. I can't tell you how much knowledge and actual skill goes into it. People also like to scoff at the idea of "hunting traditions." But they're real, and it's a pretty powerful thing. He takes our 3 YO "hunting" now and I can't tell you how special Mick thinks it is. Here are the things Mick knows now, because of the "hunting" trips he's taken with his dad: The difference between buck and doe hoofprints, and how to find them on trails How to tell where a deer slept How to tell where a deer rubbed his antlers against a tree Why the buck rubbed his antlers against the tree What kinds of things deer like to eat What kinds of sounds attract deer What kinds of sounds scare deer How to walk in the woods quietly Where his dad, grandfather, and uncle have killed deer for the past 20 years. The direct relationship between the deer he sees in the woods and the meat that is served on our table. That meat does not appear shrink-wrapped in the wild That a lot of time, effort, and skill on his dad's part goes into the preparation of the meat that appears on our table. Also, here in Indiana, hunters donate a considerable amount of meat to local food banks. And it's at a not-inconsiderable expense to us. We still pay for the processing and the equipment DH needs. But over the years, DH generally donates at least one or two deer a year. That's a lot of venison. His hunting friends generally do the same. A lady we knew a few years ago lost her husband, and ate very well due to all the hunters she knew who made sure her deep freeze was stocked. So yeah, there's my "hackneyed excuse" as to why my DH hunts.

Date: Aug-18 To: All From: Sam-n-Ella Add to FriendsIgnore

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I'm not here for a fight, but I'm sorry, I stand very firmly by this. People LOVE hunting, they think it's fun. That is freaking DISGUSTING. Killing animals is not fun, it's sick. And to say that it's ok to kill an animal humanely...well, that's an oxymoron. You can't KILL HUMANELY. Killing is killing. I'm sure that a deer as it's being hunted and shot, and is laying on the ground bleeding and terrified while some big hunter is dragging him through the woods isn't thinking, "Well, I led a long life here on this nice free range farm, I guess this is a good way to go!" We as a society think that because we are stronger than animals, and smarter, that it's ok for us to torture, kill, hunt, enslave, and abuse them. And it's sick sick sick. And I apologize again for offending anyone, but people who hunt for fun are sick, too! Oh, and as for the deer population thing, that's just a hackneyed excuse, too. I have studied population dynamics, and when it comes down to it, animals control their own populations, and they do so very effectively. FAR more effectively than humans. In western pa where I live, deer overpopulation is HUGE problem. And every year it's the same thing...too many deer, more hunting tags. How many years is it going to be before we stupid humans figure out that it isn't working??? Duh??? The reason that deer overpopulate is because they're being hunted! White tailed deer are one of the only species that "twin" as a way to enlarge their populations, and where I live twinning happens in almost every birth! They think that they're being decimated and so they reproduce MORE! If we would leave them the heck alone, a lot of them would die off naturally and they would develop their own population control. No species of animal REQUIRES kill happy men with guns to help them control their populations. Grrrrr.... I'm going to go buy a diaper. Laura Sam 12/31/04 Ella 12/14/07

Date: Aug-18 To: All From: TexKitty Add to FriendsIgnore

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Now Laura, a lot of the things you said could be argued the opposite way. I honestly think you are wrong when you say hunting leads to overpopulation. We have a huge deer overpopulation problem here. The main contributing factor, IMO, is loss of habitat. We keep squeezing them out of their habitats to put in YET ANOTHER neighborhood. How would you explain twinning in an old heavily wooded neighborhood with a LARGE deer population? (My inlaws neighborhood.) We've seen a lot more twins the last few years. There is NO hunting or capturing allowed. In fact, the deer are fat and well fed. Why would they need to increase their herd size with twins? (I'm not being a smart azz, I seriously want to know what you think about that.) I have a lot more I could say but I'm typing one handed & this is taking forever to type. KITTY Robert 12/04 Max 1/07

Date: Aug-18 To: All From: hadtochangename Add to FriendsIgnore

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I agree with Katie. In fact I couldn't have said it better myself, so I have nothing to add to what she said. Also, the meat I eat comes from my IL's farm...so I *do* know how the animals are treated, so please don't tell me I don't. That's insulting. Carry on. Jen

Date: Aug-18 To: All From: Sam-n-Ella Add to FriendsIgnore

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I don't know Kitty, I learned about twinning from one of our clients who is a biologist. She wrote an article about the Pa white tail deer population and twinning that was published in several national publications. I'll have to ask her the next time I see her. And you ARE right, loss of habitat is a bigger problem than hunting, but that too is another example of the disrespect that we humans have for our fellow animals. Laura Sam 12/31/04 Ella 12/14/07

Date: Aug-18 To: All From: IrritableGrizzly Add to FriendsIgnore

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Laura, I'm trying not be be defensive here. I respect your POV and that you care about animals. Can I gently point out that you insisting my husband is "sick" doesn't jibe with you "not looking for a fight"? He finds hunting enjoyable. He's not sick, and it's not the same thing even remotely as hurting animals for sadistic pleasure. I've got to say I flat out disagree with your thoughts about animal population. I'd agree with Kitty's statements and her questions. But it's probably the case we won't ever agree on this issue. There was a situation in Indiana where deer hunting was outlawed for years in a park near Indianapolis. The deer population exploded - was absolutely out of control. Managed hunts were reintroduced, deer population got back in check within a few years. Numbers of deer-car interactions plummeted, and they haven't crept back up.

Date: Aug-18 To: All From: hadtochangename Add to FriendsIgnore

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In the past I have been (rightly) accused of hurling insults at members of this board during a "debate." Calling someone who hunts "sick" is the same thing, IMO. It's not right. There are still populations in this huge world who SURVIVE on meat they've hunted. Would you want those populations to die out purely because you think they're "sick?" Jen

Date: Aug-18 To: All From: mama2L&L Add to FriendsIgnore

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ouch Laura- my dad is a huge hunter and he is surely not sick. in fact he's probably one of the most decent people I know. he doesn't hunt in a sick manner either. he would never torture an animal. b/c he hunted we had plenty of meat in our freezer growing up. he still hunts but not nearly as much now that it's just him and my mom. in fact the only thing he hunts now is deer. Tiffany Lily 12/04 Leyton 1/07

Date: Aug-18 To: All From: Sam-n-Ella Add to FriendsIgnore

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So..would I be wrong to say that someone who killed a dog or a cat for fun was "sick"? I mean, certainly we all hear the stories about how when Jeffrey Dahmer was young he killed animals for fun. So...if he had put on camos and gone out in the woods with a shotgun he wouldn't have been "sick" he would have been enjoying a national pasttime? And not only that, but doing the world a favor by helping with animal population control! And we were all disturbed a few weeks ago by the story about the woman's son putting kitties in the freezer...but if his daddy had packed him up with a rifle to go out to shoot bunnies during small game season it would be...what....passing down a great family tradition? I don't get it. Stick a form in me...I'm done. Laura Sam 12/31/04 Ella 12/14/07

Date: Aug-18 To: All From: IrritableGrizzly Add to FriendsIgnore

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I mean, certainly we all hear the stories about how when Jeffrey Dahmer was young he killed animals for fun. So...if he had put on camos and gone out in the woods with a shotgun he wouldn't have been "sick" he would have been enjoying a national pasttime? And not only that, but doing the world a favor by helping with animal population control! And we were all disturbed a few weeks ago by the story about the woman's son putting kitties in the freezer...but if his daddy had packed him up with a rifle to go out to shoot bunnies during small game season it would be...what....passing down a great family tradition? Laura, did you really just go there? Was it an unfortunate choice or words, or did you just draw a parallel between my husband (and the other hunting DH's mentioned on this thread) and Jeffery Dahmer? Is that what you meant to do? Am I misinterpreting your post? If you refuse to see the difference between deliberately inflicting pain and suffering (for the sole, express reason of deriving pleasure from inflicting that pain and suffering) on small animals, and hunting, done for a variety of reasons ranging from food to managing wildlife and local habitats (in which hunters take every measure to spare the animals pain and suffering), I can't really explain it to you. The notion of intent is everything. People who torture small animals have the goal of inflicting pain and torture. They derive a sick pleasure from inflicting that pain. People who hunt use every possible method to lessen or eliminate as completely as possible any pain or suffering on the animals' behalf. Let me try this one more time. My husband considers the whole process of hunting to be enjoyable. Plenty of times, he comes home from hunting and hasn't gotten anything. Many times, he had a clear shot and could have gotten a deer, but for reasons I alluded to above, he chooses not to. He still comes home and reports he had a great time. He really likes being in the woods, the challenge of staying so still and so hidden that the deer don't even sense you. The actual kill is part of the process, sure, but it's not everything. Now, do you still refuse to see the difference between my husband hunting deer - in which a deer is killed in a matter of seconds after living a completely natural life, and a young child doing unspeakable things to a defenseless, trapped dog, to get some sort of sadistic pleasure?

Date: Aug-18 To: All From: Sam-n-Ella Add to FriendsIgnore

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People who hunt use every possible method to lessen or eliminate as completely as possible any pain or suffering on the animals' behalf They kill them. They ambush, slaughter, kill them and drag them out of the woods and chop their dead bodies into pieces then HANG their dead heads on their walls. Nuff' said. Yeah, I see a real concern for the animals' pain and suffering there... And no, I will never ever understand why people who kill dogs are sick, and people who kill deer are "sportsmen." Killing an animal is killing an animal...doing it out of necessity is one thing, heck, I would kill a PERSON if it was to save my family, but finding pleasure in killing any animal is WEIRD to me! Laura Sam 12/31/04 Ella 12/14/07 Edited Aug-18 by Sam-n-Ella

Date: Aug-18 To: All From: IrritableGrizzly Add to FriendsIgnore

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All righty, then. I guess you did mean to compare my husband to a serial killer. Nice. Glad you weren't trying to offend anyone! For what it's worth, there's not a single animal head hanging in my house. Just making sure - you know that the deer are dead before the dragging and chopping, right? Also curious - do you know any hunters IRL?

Date: Aug-18 To: All From: Sam-n-Ella Add to FriendsIgnore

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IRL, heck everyone I know hunts! I grew up on venison and rabbit. My stepdad even used to kill giant turtles and make soup out of them! Ewww! I have pictures of my sister crawling around with the turtle shells on her back! But seriously, and in friendliness, cause I'm a lover not a fighter.... what about game hunting? We have a customer who owns a big game hunting business. We make brochures and posters for him. He flies hunters all around the country killing the wildlife. Seriously, they kill goats! Big mountain goats! We have made a small fortune printing big posters of his customers with their big dead goats and bear etc.... And it's EXPENSIVE! His tours go up to 20 THOUSAND dollars! $20,000 to fly to Montana to kill a freaking mountain goat!!! Now to me, that is just weird! To pay a small fortune and travel around the country just to kill animals! That's just killing for pleasure! What's that all about? Laura Sam 12/31/04 Ella 12/14/07

Date: Aug-18 To: All From: benandemilysmom Add to FriendsIgnore Report as Violation Print Send to a Friend Bookmark 7686.21 I really don't want to get in the middle of this debate because it's one of those situations where you're never going to agree. I just had to ask a question though. Laura, if you're so against hunting then why would you print posters promoting it? Aren't you in some way contributing to that guy's business? I know it's your business and livelihood, but if you're so passionate about how people who hunt are "sick" then I guess I don't understand how you can possibly print posters of people holding up dead animals that they just killed. Why don't you put a sign in the window of your business that states you are against "sick" people who kill innocent animals and that you will not print any materials promoting it. Christine, blessed mommy to... Benjamin 12.17.04 and Emily 5.15.06 My Blog! Edited Aug-18 by benandemilysmom Date: Aug-18 To: All From: mama2L&L Add to FriendsIgnore Report as Violation Print Send to a Friend Bookmark 7686.22 I was going to ask Laura that same question Tiffany Lily 12/04 Leyton 1/07 Date: Aug-18 To: All From: IrritableGrizzly Add to FriendsIgnore Report as Violation Print Send to a Friend Bookmark 7686.23 Aw, Laura, I'm just irritable. My FIL makes an AMAZING turtle soup. I'll be nice and not even mention what's in my crockpot at home right now. I think this is one of those things you're either into, or you're not, KWIM? My BIL does hunts like that all the time - he'll go out west to hunt antelope, etc, or Newfoundland - can't remember what he was hunting out there. DH and BIL went to Tennessee earlier this year for a wild boar hunt and they both enjoyed it. I spent most of Easter weekend food-saver-ing all the sausage we had made from a boar. My DH really wants to go to either Canada or Alaska for a bear hunt; I think he's planning that for the next year or so. I guess one reason they're so popular is that it's a good way to actually learn and experience different parts of the country and different terrains. It's different than just backpacking through those areas. Also, working with local guides you learn about the areas and the animals, the ecosystem in general, in a way you might not in a different manner. You have to pay a lot of money in permits, and DH feels really strongly that this is a good thing that helps support conservation efforts in those areas. I know in different places in Africa, for example, the hunting industry does a lot to help local economies. I wish I could remember the name of the documentary we watched that went into a lot of detail about it. Date: Aug-18 To: All From: Andrea&2QTs Add to FriendsIgnore Report as Violation Print Send to a Friend Bookmark 7686.24 We eat organic, sustainably harvested, locally grown venison at my house. Add my husband to the list of incurable redneck slaughter mongers. Just the the pp (who said it better than I will), my husband comes back without game much more often than he comes back with it. He canoes to his spot, he sits in a tree, and he comes back and tells me about everything that he saw (birds, etc). Just as a question, Laura, and I don' tknow the answer, just something to think about. How much habitat destruction do you think can be attributed to the acres and acres of soybean farms and factories that it takes to make a veggie burger? How many animals are harmed by the incredible use of pesticides and herbicides that it takes to farm vegetables, etc? Nobody is faultless when it comes to food. A. Date: Aug-18 To: All From: Sam-n-Ella Add to FriendsIgnore Report as Violation Print Send to a Friend Bookmark 7686.25 Yes, I was wondering how long it would take before someone went there. LOL Inevitably, when I tell someone the I'm vegetarian, their response is "Do you wear leather?" "Do you kill spiders?" etc... And yes, I suppose that soybeans cause their own destruction. Sigh. As far as the business, though- that's just common sense, people. You don't put a sign in your window telling people that they aren't welcome in your business, that's just stupid. DH doesn't even allow me to talk to that guy. We also make copies for the local Republican committee, we made a banner last year that said "Babies killed here" for our local right wingers when they went on their pro life march across pa etc.... That's just business. Am I supposed to put a sign in the window that says "No hunters, meat eaters, or pro lifers allowed"??? Just because those are things that I am passionate about? Laura Sam 12/31/04 Ella 12/14/07 Date: Aug-18 To: All From: hadtochangename Add to FriendsIgnore Report as Violation Print Send to a Friend Bookmark 7686.26 That's just business. Am I supposed to put a sign in the window that says "No hunters, meat eaters, or pro lifers allowed"??? Just because those are things that I am passionate about? Why not? If you're going to be passionate enough to insult people's choices for their family, then you should. Sorry, but that's how it goes. You can't say "Oh I'm SO passionate about this" and hurl insults left and right but still allow YOUR family to profit from it. Which is exactly what you're doing. Jen Date: Aug-18 To: All From: benandemilysmom Add to FriendsIgnore Report as Violation Print Send to a Friend Bookmark 7686.27 Yeah... what Jen said. Christine, blessed mommy to... Benjamin 12.17.04 and Emily 5.15.06 My Blog! Date: Aug-18 To: All From: helenmaryy Add to FriendsIgnore Report as Violation Print Send to a Friend Bookmark 7686.28 ok ok enough already, what about bull fights??? doesnt anyone see anything sooooooo wrong with this? im not a hunter, but im not anti hunting, if its a quick kill, i mean yes if people fought the deer and poked it and proded it and stabbed it for hours, then i agree with laura, thats phucking sick and yes if you do this you are in every sense of the word a jeffery dahmer. i just cant believe the lack of compassion when it comes to bull fighting or any other animal fighting, that animal wasnt out looking for a fight. i was rading an article (speaking of deer) about how connceticut is sooooo over run with deer (millions) that some are just walking right into peoples houses and cars and they interviewed some people who have had lymes disease 4-5 times becasue they cant control the tics. wajen, not to call you out but you said you get your meet from your inlaws whos animals are treated very humane, but just the other day didnt asshat by some meet from a door to door salesman? just saying............ wheres anna? HELLS BELLS :o) Date: Aug-18 To: All From: Mom2Kate&Nick Add to FriendsIgnore Report as Violation Print Send to a Friend Bookmark 7686.29 Ohhh, back just in time for a debate. Fun. I have nothing at all intellectual to contribute. I eat meat. Mostly chicken. Sometimes turkey. I try my darnest to buy organic. When I think about the animals, though, I think about giving up eating any of them. But I'm allergic to soy and beans do a number on me sometimes. What protein will I eat? Nuts all day? So I eat them, grudgingly. But I didn't even eat poultry until I was in college for this very reason, never have eaten ham, and while fed red meat as a child, I don't eat it anymore. Anyway....that's just where I'm coming from because I'm probably going to sound totally hypocritical. I stand behind Laura on this one! (Shocker!) I know our food industry is screwed up. I know that farmers who slaughter are not bad people at heart. And I trust there are hunters who are good people. But the idea that someone is going to kill a living creature, well, I can't understand how they live with themselves. Yes, I completely see the hypocrisy. I use some of what they kill. I am no better. I get it. But to be on the front lines, actually taking the life, I don't see how you can do that without some level of coldness in your heart. Heck, I once ran over a mouse on the highway by accident.....and once hit a bird on my windshield.....and both have stuck with me to this day. I cried inconsolably when each happened. I had to pull over, I was so upset I had just killed something. Each event has stuck with me and still makes me feel a cold sweat on the inside. I can't imagine how someone would feel doing it on purpose. Or worse yet, how someone could not feel that way. So Laura, as far as the basic argument, I've got your back! And I also have your back on the work related stuff. Heck, I'm married to someone whose direct boss is a person I dislike more than pretty much anyone else around. Someone I disagree with wholeheartedly. Dh does his bidding and I reap the paycheck rewards. Should I go out and get a job to pay for all my expenses thoughout this administration's run? Sometimes work is work. I get it. Amanda Kate-12/21/04 Nick-05/19/07 Date: Aug-18 To: All From: hadtochangename Add to FriendsIgnore Report as Violation Print Send to a Friend Bookmark 7686.30 Helen, both are right. We do get meat from IL's. However we went through it very quickly this year and were going to have to wait until February for the next butchering. Then this meat guy came by and we bought from him. We do NOT know his cattle were raised/treated and I will admit that. But, the majority of the meat we get is home grown, so to speak. Jen Date: Aug-18 To: All From: helenmaryy Add to FriendsIgnore Report as Violation Print Send to a Friend Bookmark 7686.31 jenn what if its not cattle at all (ruff ruff, meowwwwwwwwwww)j/k tastes like chicken HELLS BELLS :o) Date: Aug-18 To: All From: benandemilysmom Add to FriendsIgnore Report as Violation Print Send to a Friend Bookmark 7686.32 Helen- I didn't realize how bulls that were used for bullfighting were treated. After reading what you posted, I would say yes, I'm against bullfighting. The way those bulls are treated is disgusting and awful. I eat meat and have no plans to change my diet. That being said, when we would drive to Colorado a few times a year we would drive by tons of feed yards. I always felt sad for those cows. Christine, blessed mommy to... Benjamin 12.17.04 and Emily 5.15.06 My Blog! Date: Aug-18 To: All From: Mom2Kate&Nick Add to FriendsIgnore Report as Violation Print Send to a Friend Bookmark 7686.33 Yeah, Hells. Bullfighting sucks. I agree. Very, vey sick. Amanda Kate-12/21/04 Nick-05/19/07 Date: Aug-18 To: All From: Andrea&2QTs Add to FriendsIgnore Report as Violation Print Send to a Friend Bookmark 7686.34 Honestly, Laura, I would feel better about you calling me a vicious barbarian if I didn't know you surfed Ebay for Coach purses. It's not like those cows are papmpered and spoiled and willingly lay down thier lives... You can't have it both ways. I'm not sure about cows, but I know that for sheepskin, the leather is a direct by-product of the mutton industry. You can't judge meat eaters without turning the same judgement on yourself. http://www.lcanimal.org/cmpgn/cmpgn_017.htm It's better becuase you don't ingest it? But, then again, I am a bloodthirsty killer, I guess. I've used many a snap trap to kill rid houses of mice. Gotta run, at work. Blah. A. Date: Aug-18 To: All From: hadtochangename Add to FriendsIgnore Report as Violation Print Send to a Friend Bookmark 7686.35 ITA Andrea. ITA. Well said. Jen Date: Aug-18 To: All From: Sam-n-Ella Add to FriendsIgnore Report as Violation Print Send to a Friend Bookmark 7686.36 LOL- you guys are all :Yeah, good one against Laura" but I don't recall bringing up vegetarianism or claiming to be a fabulously perfect animal rights activist. I used to be, but even THEN, no matter how hard I tried everyone was always ready for an attemot to turn me into a hypocrite! I used to have a wallet made from recycled tires, and once had a guy tell me that I was a hypocrite because the GLUE was probably made from dead horses. You know folks, this has nothing to do with the fact that I like Coach wallets. IT"S FREAKING WEIRD TO THINK THAT IT'S FUN TO KILL ANIMALS!!!!! I'm not saying you're a serial killer if you hunt! But YES! I DO NOT UNDERSTAND HOW PEOPLE FIND PLEASURE IN KILLING ANIMALS! If it makes you all feel better to consider me a huge hypocrite- go for it. I don't care what you eat, or how you eat it. And honestly, since I've had kids I've been a lot less passionate about animal rights issues, but I STILL THINK THAT IT'S WEIRD TO THINK THAT KILLING ANIMALS IF FUN! Laura Sam 12/31/04 Ella 12/14/07 Date: Aug-18 To: All From: helenmaryy Add to FriendsIgnore Report as Violation Print Send to a Friend Bookmark 7686.37 that article made me so sad why is it that criminals have to be killed "humanely" after killing raping and/or torturing another, but innocent animals are killed in such horrific ways, in this country i expect so much more, am i that naive ?i guess i am, i am not a vegetarian totally, but i still feel animals deserve respect, some more than alot of people i know of. i mean they feel, they have nerves, they know when they dont feel good, they know when their babies are taking away and still no one cares. i know this sounds weird i just wish there was a "better" way to kill them, like lethal injection, i mean they are injected with so many hornones anyway whats another injection?! im just suprised animal rights groups cant get a law passed on this. i mean i know people will still eat meat and to me its not the death that bothers me ,its HOW they are doing it. I believe GOD made all creatures and i have a hard time feeling this is how he wanted people to act. heck even when mice are killed, if its done "right" its quick, i wont even use those poisons on them becasue they are anticouaglants that casue them to bleed internally slowly. i know this is getting of subject but the bull story makes me sick HELLS BELLS :o) Date: Aug-18 To: All From: Sam-n-Ella Add to FriendsIgnore Report as Violation Print Send to a Friend Bookmark 7686.38 Yeah Helen, you know what Ghandi said, "You can best judge a society by how it treats its weakest members." Doesn't say much for humans. Laura Sam 12/31/04 Ella 12/14/07 Date: Aug-18 To: All From: Andrea&2QTs Add to FriendsIgnore Report as Violation Print Send to a Friend Bookmark 7686.39 Laura, we are ganging up on you becuase you compared hunters to Jeffery F-ing Dahmer!!! Hello?!?!? Cows that make leater DIE. SOMEOME has to KILL them!!! So you are just happy that it isn't YOU?!?!? That makes it better?!?!? At least I am honest about it. My husband kills animals. He doesn't go running into the woods, guns blazing, shooting everything in sight and getting a hard-on about it. He goes out into the deer's natural habitat, where it has lived as full a life as a deer can. He tries as hard as possible to give the deer (or turkey, or whatever) as quick and painless a death as possible. Then, we use as much as the meat as we can. Maybe I'm just defensive about it. I was vegetarian for a while, but gave it up. Honestly, I'm not sure I could pull the trigger either. But, you've made me feel like I need to defend our choice to eat hunted meat. A. Date: Aug-18 To: All From: IrritableGrizzly Add to FriendsIgnore Report as Violation Print Send to a Friend Bookmark 7686.40 I honestly don't get the argument here. Leather's fine, eating meat is fine, as long as someone else does the killing? If you're concerned about animal welfare, I'd think you'd be MORE for hunters than for animal factory-type farms. Laura, I'm sorry you feel ganged up on. But you know, imagine how I felt when you compared my DH to Jeffery Dahmer. And I do think bull fighting and animal fighting is awful. That, I don't get at all. Date: Aug-18 To: All From: danicali007 Add to FriendsIgnore Report as Violation Print Send to a Friend Bookmark 7686.41 I have nothing to add...... Just entertained Danielle "It will pass. And I doubt you'll want to drink the dog's blood." "Even as a newborn, you'll have better taste than that." Jordan 2003 Noelle 2004 Date: Aug-18 To: All From: befels Add to FriendsIgnore Report as Violation Print Send to a Friend Bookmark 7686.42 I like leather items and I REALLY like meat (he, he, he!!) so, think what you want... But, with as many deer as I have to try to avoid hitting with my truck, well, we are definitely over populated and I live in the middle of NO WHERE!!!! So, no I don't feel bad when I see one laying dead beside the road b/c it got hit by a car/truck... I am just glad that it wasn't my car/truck! And yes, the bull fights are very cruel!!!! Lib, Harley (12.20.04) & Bryar (01.02.08) Date: Aug-18 To: All From: helenmaryy Add to FriendsIgnore Report as Violation Print Send to a Friend Bookmark 7686.43 i hope your not talking about me, i could never kill an animal, but i know its going to be done whether i like it or not, sure i eat it(rarely) BUT doesnt mean i think the way they are killed is right. hunting is totally different to me, most hunters shoot to kill. i just figured in this day and age it wouldbe different from yesturyears but its worse than ever. makes me sad anyway this is like beating a dead horse (no pun intended) im done. HELLS BELLS :o) Date: Aug-18 To: All From: Sam-n-Ella Add to FriendsIgnore Report as Violation Print Send to a Friend Bookmark 7686.44 I give up, you're all right. Killing animals is a blast. And for what it's worth I was ASKING a question..one which nobody really answered. I was asking WHY some people who kill animals for fun are psychos and why hunters who kill animals for fun are "sportsmen." Why I would go to jail for shooting one of Anna's pitbulls, but Andrea's husband would have a "trophy" for shooting a big ol' buck. Why killing a bull for fun is cruel, but paying 20k to go on a big game hunt to kill a mountain goat is sport. That's what I don't get. Laura Sam 12/31/04 Ella 12/14/07 Date: Aug-18 To: All From: hadtochangename Add to FriendsIgnore Report as Violation Print Send to a Friend Bookmark 7686.45 At the moment I can only answer one of these: Why I would go to jail for shooting one of Anna's pitbulls, but Andrea's husband would have a "trophy" for shooting a big ol' buck. Because that is Anna's PROPERTY. She owns the dog. It is her pet. I am willing to bed no one called the buck that Andrea's DH shot a pet. Jen Date: Aug-18 To: All From: Krazycricket21 Add to FriendsIgnore Report as Violation Print Send to a Friend Bookmark 7686.46 Laura!? You would go to jail because you killed me, then shot my dog. You would go to jail for shooting my pet and family member. You would go to jail for discharging a fire arm in a neighborhood. You would go to jail for killing my turkey (she would attack you if you broke into my yard). You would go to jail because he is not your dog. I could go on but i am a little too upset to form anymore coherent thoughts! -Anna When i told you that i didn't want you, it was the blackest kind of Blasphemy. Gabriel 10Dec04 Damien 15Sept07 Edited Aug-18 by Krazycricket21 Edited Aug-18 by Krazycricket21 Date: Aug-18 To: All From: hadtochangename Add to FriendsIgnore Report as Violation Print Send to a Friend Bookmark 7686.47 Besides, Laura, how would you kill Anna's dog? You don't believe in guns either. Anna, do they make purses from Pit Bull fur? I bet they'd be puuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuurdy. Jen Date: Aug-18 To: All From: IrritableGrizzly Add to FriendsIgnore Report as Violation Print Send to a Friend Bookmark 7686.48 Laura, I did answer your question. The difference is intent and method. People who kill animals for the express intent of hurting them, torturing them, causing them pain - and no other reason - are sick, IMO. People who hunt for food, or the other reasons people hunt, with the express intent on causing the animal as little pain as possible and making their death as instantaneous as possible. The difference is intent. Assuming her dog wasn't attacking you and wasn't on your property, and wasn't aggressive, and was collared and obviously not a stray dog, you would be in legal trouble for shooting someone's pet. There's no season on dogs, and certainly not on someone's pet. And let's use my DH here. He has a lifetime hunting license from the state of Indiana, and strictly observes all the applicable laws. During deer season, on land he is legally allowed to hunt, he is operating within the law. So if he kills a deer during deer season and is under his limits, he hasn't committed a crime. Killing a bull is cruel in the bullfighting sense because that bull is kept alive for the sole purpose of fighting and hurting it. Killing a mountain goat is not, because it's lived it's whole life in it's natural habitat, doing its own thing, and it's death is very quick if a hunter kills it. Date: Aug-18 To: All From: hadtochangename Add to FriendsIgnore Report as Violation Print Send to a Friend Bookmark 7686.49 I think Katie should just do most of my talking on this thread, because she is saying everything that I can't. Jen Date: Aug-18 To: All From: Sam-n-Ella Add to FriendsIgnore Report as Violation Print Send to a Friend Bookmark 7686.50 Serisously, this is just ridiculous. I agree to STRONGLY disagree. I'm not reading anymore. Laura Sam 12/31/04 Ella 12/14/07 Date: Aug-18 To: All From: hadtochangename Add to FriendsIgnore Report as Violation Print Send to a Friend Bookmark 7686.51 Seriously. I don't understand how it's any more ridiculous than the asinine claim that hunters are equal to Jeffery Dahmer. Or that you're a vegetarian b/c you don't like the way animals are killed for food but you LURVE your Coach wallets and bags. Last time I checked the leather on those wasn't still wiggling around, Laura. It's only ridiculous because your logic is ridiculous. Jen Date: Aug-18 To: All From: IrritableGrizzly Add to FriendsIgnore Report as Violation Print Send to a Friend Bookmark 7686.52 How is what I wrote ridiculous? Laura asked a question and I answered it. I don't know who you're responding to here, but you asked for an answer to a question. I gave it thought and answered it, and the only response is that this is getting ridiculous? The person who compared hunters to serial killers gets to say this has gotten ridiculous? (I probably won't be back for the rest of the day, but I'm not "not reading". Just thought I'd throw that out there.) Date: Aug-18 To: All From: BirthyJen+3 Add to FriendsIgnore Report as Violation Print Send to a Friend Bookmark 7686.53 Personally, I think humans feel free to treat poorly anything that can't talk. And that goes for babies, too. Think how many people say "oh, they don't mind that much, they only cried for a minute and then they got over it." Well, how the f do they know? If our babies could talk right out of the chute how might our parenting change? If animals could talk in a way we could understand, how might our treatment of them change? Same goes to some extent for the ill or bedridden; once they lose the ability to communicate we seem as a whole to become much less sympathetic and compassionate. I'm just saying that as humans, at least those of us referred to as "civilized", it seems that we refuse to have consideration for anything that can't walk right up and fight us for it. And no, that doesn't say much good about us. But I would have to ask, Laura, is it MORE humane to let overpopulated deer starve to death, simply because that is what would happen in nature? Is that what you mean by "humane"? B/c I can't stomach the idea of some poor faun slowly starving to death b/c his mother can't make the milk to feed him nearly as well as I can stomach a hunter killing the doe quickly so that she never gets pg b/c he knows the land isn't enough to support her and her baby. So yeah, maybe the ideal situation would be one where the deer had plenty of room to roam and eat, with just the right number of natural predators to pick them off, but we all know that predator populations often suffer even worse from humans moving in b/c they can be considered a danger to humans or pets. So that leaves the deer with too many of them for the land they're on, and they either starve or, apparently, get hit by a car. Seriously, which is actually the preferable death of the three: slow starvation, being broken by a car, or being shot in such a way that you are dead very quickly (and in enough shock that, with a human at least, the pain might not be a recognizeable sensation before dying)? And this from someone who doesn't hunt and wouldn't consider it fun. Jen Date: Aug-18 To: All From: Sam-n-Ella Add to FriendsIgnore Report as Violation Print Send to a Friend Bookmark 7686.54 I never said that all hunters are Jeffrey Dahmers, I said that it doesn't makes sense to me that killing can be acceptably considered a fun sport for some people. And none of you will listen to anything that I have to say anyway, because I have a freaking leather wallet. Just please, stop and think for a minute. Animals have the capability of love. They love each other, I know this because my cats love each other. They can love people, I know this because I have seen countless animals who show real love for people. They love their babies, their mates, their herdmates. It hurts them to lose their family members. They grieve, just like people do. But we don't care. Like Jen said, because they can't walk up to us and say "Please don't hurt us" we think that they don't feel pain. So we kill them, and not because we are protecting ourselves, but because it's fun. And because we can. I know a million hunters, and I even know some who hunt because they have to. Farmers who rely on their corn to feed their families, and people who can't afford to buy meat for their families. But most of the hunters I know hunt because they love it. They think it's fun. And that's where you guys are missing my point. People get pleasure from hurting animals. And while you can say that the intent is to kill them while inflicting as little harm as possible, there is harm, and there is pain and there is terror in them. And there is grief when their family members see them die. But yeah, I have a freaking Coach wallet, so what the heck do I know? Right? Laura Sam 12/31/04 Ella 12/14/07 Date: Aug-18 To: All From: benandemilysmom Add to FriendsIgnore Report as Violation Print Send to a Friend Bookmark 7686.55 To each their own. I don't have problems with people having their own opinions. One thing this board has taught me is that we all have different views and beliefs but that's ok. you can see from the "confessions" thread how much we all DO have in common. We're not all going to agree on this issue and no matter how we answer any questions, it won't make you all of a sudden understand one point of view over the other. Anyway, that's my 2 cents. Laura, as much as I disagree with you, I still like your Coach wallet loving butt. Christine, blessed mommy to... Benjamin 12.17.04 and Emily 5.15.06 My Blog! Date: Aug-18 To: All From: ethan~christian~emma Add to FriendsIgnore Report as Violation Print Send to a Friend Bookmark 7686.56 That Ghandi quote always gets me... I wonder what he'd think about 6 month old babies being left to cry by themselves b/c they want to be held and not sleep, or the abortion of babies with down syndrome because they are not "perfect" or simply getting rid of babies that come at the wrong time..... the way we treat the helpless indeed is sad... (just saying...) Eh, we don't hunt, we eat meat and I know plenty of hunters - none seem to be the serial killer type though I think this is one of those things - I was **appalled** when I heard about a deer-hunting day (not the proper word, but ykwim) at our local metropark. I was disgusted and vowed to never go there again, never give them any of our money etc.. Until I read further and learned about the deer that were starving and over populated in the area, until I drove through it and saw the sad state of the animals, trying to scavange for food. So they were hunted and processed, organized etc.. and the meat and proceeds were donated to a food bank or shelter (can't remember). Is it the best scenario? Nope, but in the end, the deer suffered less by immediate kill than starving to death... Blah. Babies and animals... two of natures most defenseless creature. Jennifer Date: Aug-18 To: All From: sallytiger Add to FriendsIgnore Report as Violation Print Send to a Friend Bookmark 7686.57 I know I should not go here, but I can't help it, sooooooo Laura, first off - I totally respect you and have learned a lot from you, so I am not trying to gang up on you. But, I have to agree, sometimes your way of thinking does not seem integrated to me. How can you so passionately defend a deer yet believe it is okay to have an abortion? I am really just trying to figure that out. It is not like we all do not know these days that it is in fact a human life in there - we all saw our babies heart beats at 6-8 weeks. Have you ever read about abortion procedures? They are very, very cruel procedures. Why is it that this little life is not important to you, but a deer is? I know I am going to get in trouble now! Love you ladies! Sally, wife to Jerry and Proud Mommy of Brantley Michael (12/09/04) Hallyanne Scotland (12/22/06) Kaminer Lee (07/17/08) Date: Aug-18 To: All From: hadtochangename Add to FriendsIgnore Report as Violation Print Send to a Friend Bookmark 7686.58 Sally, that was totally my thought too, but I didn't want to say it. And Laura, I don't know what you don't get about the wallet thing. You're so quick to talk about how horrible the animals feel watching their loved one die for meat. The same cow that died for meat died for your wallet. What's not to get? It makes you sound hypocritical, or at the very least halfazzed about your cause. And, yeah, why a cow is more important than a baby--not a fetus, a BABY--is beyond me. Jen Date: Aug-18 To: All From: sallytiger Add to FriendsIgnore Report as Violation Print Send to a Friend Bookmark 7686.59 I should not have gone there. I got all passionate. I apologize. I am not going to delete it because then you all would just wonder what I wrote. Sorry! Back to the original question... YES, I have always believed bull fighting is sick. Any torturing of an animal for entertainment's sake is awful. Sally, wife to Jerry and Proud Mommy of Brantley Michael (12/09/04) Hallyanne Scotland (12/22/06) Kaminer Lee (07/17/08) Date: Aug-18 To: All From: Mom2Kate&Nick Add to FriendsIgnore Report as Violation Print Send to a Friend Bookmark 7686.60 Woah, Sally. Way to take it up a notch!!! I don't really want to go there, but I can't help but point out that the new argument you bring up can so easily be turned on its ear and many of these prohunting arguments get twisted to give you your rebuttal. Really. That debate can't be won. Only cause problems. Let's not go there. I have to jump to Laura's defense to say that I feel bad that no one is connecting with her main point. I think it's not at all about hunting and whether or not it is humane, helps the herd, feeds the poor or anything. Her argument is that she can't fathom that for so many people, the act of killing a living, breathing being with a family is fun. Not necessary. Not protective. But fun. My mom, heck, my dh in my own garage has set out a mousetrap. I do not see them as killers, per se, because they are killing a mouse to protect the family (mouse droppings in our stroller and on all our kids' stuff). But the difference is that they don't think it's fun. They're not like, "oh, boy, I get to gather my supplies and go kill an animal" rather they do it grudgingly and often try live traps first. I still can't stomach it personally, but I see that as different. Having to hunt because your family will starve. I get that. You're not doing it for fun, you're protecting your family. That line of thinking makes sense to me. But the idea that someone can kill an animal, even if it's for the good of the herd, and find it FUN makes no sense to me and rather disgusts me. I think that's what Laura's trying to get at. It's the enjoying it.....not the why or how of it......that's disturbing. Amanda Kate-12/21/04 Nick-05/19/07 Date: Aug-18 To: All From: ethan~christian~emma Add to FriendsIgnore Report as Violation Print Send to a Friend Bookmark 7686.61 Don't worry Sally - I pretty much said the same thing, but your post went just after mine. I think it's all about how you define the importance of life...and the "when" life if really, truly valued. Amanda - I get that Laura finds the "thrill" of hunting appalling (as do I) however, I don't, for a minute, believe that people that hunt are sick or disgusting or inhumane - I personally find the thrill of black diamond downhill skiing appalling, it's not for me. But at the same time - I don't think people that take those risks are stupid or morons. We're not hunters, never will be hunters, and I seriously hope our children don't ever find hunting appealing to them. But I certainly don't think for a minute that anyone on here has a child that's going to be Dahmer because they go out hunting with daddy. Does that make sense? Jennifer What about fishing? Is that a huge no-no as well? Our kids love to go fishing - we catch and release, but as life would have it, those that get released don't always "swim off to the sunset" if you know what I mean. And most of the time we don't catch anything lol. But the kids enjoy it, dh enjoys it (okay, so we do it 2x a year lol - but they enjoy it when they do). J. Date: Aug-18 To: All From: mama2L&L Add to FriendsIgnore Report as Violation Print Send to a Friend Bookmark 7686.62 My dad throughly enjoy's hunting but I think what he really enjoys is sitting in his deer stand all by himself, lol. He would never take just any shot. In fact I've heard him and the group he hunts with say they would never take just any shot b/c they don't want the deer to suffer. It's all about killing it on the first shot, however that can't always happen either. My dad doesn't LOVE killing things. He's not being sick when he's hunting. He would never hurt anyone, really AND he SURELY would never agree with torturing anything either. He doesn't pay money to go on big hunting excurions either. I'm sorry but LOTS of women get abortions, they use it as forms of birth control. Heck we've seen women on bbc talk about getting abortions b/c the sex of the baby is not what they wanted So I can see why some would question how you can openly say you are all for abortions but not hunting. Imho, killing a baby, fetus whatever anyone wants to call it is far worse than shooting dead a frickin deer, chicken, goat or killing a mouse in a trap. I also really really like Laura and agree that I have learned a lot from her, so I'm not ganging up on her either. Tiffany Lily 12/04 Leyton 1/07 Date: Aug-18 To: All From: TexKitty Add to FriendsIgnore Report as Violation Print Send to a Friend Bookmark 7686.63 WHAT? I'm gone all day and come back to THIS? Come on you guys. Why is it fun to kill an animal? Hmmm. I don't really think all hunters see it as fun, per se. I think hunters enjoy the hunt. The challenge. The adrenaline rush. A lot of hunters are avid conservationists. They aren't all named bubba missing half their teeth. Don't let all the dumbshits ruin the sport. I personally could never shoot an animal, unless my family was starving and I HAD to. I just can't do it. But my DH can. He takes it seriously, but that doesn't mean he can't have a good time with his friends while he is doing it. I think guys (not all) are wired to be hunters. Its in their nature. Survival of the fittest, man! And then there is bullfighting. Hello! Spanish men are super freakin' macho! That is why they do it! It is how they show their countrymen what big brave men they are. (Gag me with a spoon!) I wish more matadors would get fudged up (see pic above) and maybe they'd have less guys signing up for matador camp. KITTY Robert 12/04 Max 1/07 Date: Aug-18 To: All From: Sam-n-Ella Add to FriendsIgnore Report as Violation Print Send to a Friend Bookmark 7686.64 Oh, thank god, my point is gotten! At least by some of you! LOL Why is it fun to kill an animal? Hmmm. I don't really think all hunters see it as fun, per se. I think hunters enjoy the hunt. The challenge. The adrenaline rush Nice point Kitty, but there really isn't much of a challenge when the deer aren't armed. Now if you were to go into the woods without your camo and your deer scent spray and fight hand to hoof with the deer? That would be a challenge. Abortion, Sally? Are you going to go there? Well, I've had that brought up to me before. They are similar in that they are both necessary- yes, I know that killing animals is sometimes necessary, it's the "fun" thing that gets me- but both really out of control. I'm vehemently pro-choice, but I really believe that there should be stricter regulations on abortion. No woman should be forced to carry a child against her will- but women shouldn't be able to use abortion as birth control, either. No system is perfect, and I think that if the way lefts and the way rights would get together and try to make a solution that pleases both sides, we would all be better off. And the leather thing...well, yes, I do admit that I too utilize dead animals. I have leather, I buy silk, I buy clothes made by little kids in China, and shop at Wal Mart etc...I do a lot of things because it's just easier. But at least in doing them I can acknowledge that I am supporting a cruel industry. Yes, the meat/ leather industry is cruel, and no I should not buy those things. But I can say that, nobody else seems to be able too. Everyone else just rationalizes and makes excuses for it. And seriously, Sally- what are you trying to do??? LOL I used to have bumper stickers all over my car, I had one that said "Ban hunting" and one that said "I'm pro-choice and I vote!" I used to get nasty notes on my windshield ALL the time. Laura Sam 12/31/04 Ella 12/14/07 Date: Aug-18 To: All From: TexKitty Add to FriendsIgnore Report as Violation Print Send to a Friend Bookmark 7686.65 Sorry, I had to post this! KITTY Robert 12/04 Max 1/07 Date: Aug-18 To: All From: Sam-n-Ella Add to FriendsIgnore Report as Violation Print Send to a Friend Bookmark 7686.66 Laura Sam 12/31/04 Ella 12/14/07 Date: Aug-18 To: All From: hadtochangename Add to FriendsIgnore Report as Violation Print Send to a Friend Bookmark 7686.67 I used to have bumper stickers all over my car, I had one that said "Ban hunting" and one that said "I'm pro-choice and I vote!" I used to get nasty notes on my windshield ALL the time Now THAT'S funny. DH and I would totally make fun of a car like that if we saw it. Jen Date: Aug-18 To: All From: Sam-n-Ella Add to FriendsIgnore Report as Violation Print Send to a Friend Bookmark 7686.68 Don't push it WaJen...I kept my mouth shut when you called me ridiculous and asinine. Laura Sam 12/31/04 Ella 12/14/07 Date: Aug-18 To: All From: hadtochangename Add to FriendsIgnore Report as Violation Print Send to a Friend Bookmark 7686.69 I called your logic ridiculous and asinine. You, not so much. Jen Date: Aug-18 To: All From: Sam-n-Ella Add to FriendsIgnore Report as Violation Print Send to a Friend Bookmark 7686.70 I miss my hubby...all you ladies with DH's that get deployed and travel overseas...I don't know how you do it. And what's UP with these freaking RIGGED olympics?????? Night all. Laura Sam 12/31/04 Ella 12/14/07 Date: 12:16 AM To: All From: helenmaryy Add to FriendsIgnore Report as Violation Print Send to a Friend Bookmark 7686.71 funny thing is i just got off work and as i was driving i was thinking about this thread and the abortion thing popped in my head too hmmmmmm! fwiw, i am as right wing as you can get on abortion, i think its the worst crime ever known to man. I 1000% agree with sally on that, its horrific what those"babies' go through,( and they are babies) so if your prolife on animals then you should be prolife on your own mankind esp. if you dont believe in the death penalty. sorry i could not let that pass without saying something. great debate.............sorry i started it sigh HELLS BELLS :o) Date: 12:19 AM To: All From: Mom2Kate&Nick Add to FriendsIgnore Report as Violation Print Send to a Friend Bookmark 7686.72 Totally rigged. Nastia was robbed tonight! And that's just one of many robberies!!! And yeah, single momhood is tough!!! Amanda Kate-12/21/04 Nick-05/19/07 Date: 7:52 AM To: All From: Sam-n-Ella Add to FriendsIgnore Report as Violation Print Send to a Friend Bookmark 7686.73 I 100% support any animal's right to have an abortion. Nastia was totally robbed. And Alicia was totally robbed yesterday! I'm sorry but when the gmnast collapses to her knees on the landing on vault AND lands out of bounds, she should NOT be going home with the gold! And it was the same with the all around the other night. The Chinese gymanst stumbled all over the beam and then got the same score as Shawn J! Gymnastics isn't even fun this year, I just sit stunned watching the Chinese get all these scores and medals that they don't deserve. RIGGED!!! Laura Sam 12/31/04 Ella 12/14/07 Edited 7:54 AM by Sam-n-Ella Date: 9:10 AM To: All From: ethan~christian~emma Add to FriendsIgnore Report as Violation Print Send to a Friend Bookmark 7686.74 Ditto on the olympics and pseudo-single parenthood lol - - dh is in New Hampshire Mon/Tues, home for the night and off to Dallas until Friday... Sigh. Jennifer Date: 9:23 AM To: All From: BirthyJen+3 Add to FriendsIgnore Report as Violation Print Send to a Friend Bookmark 7686.75 Ok, so I just have to check: Laura, you're saying that if all the hunters did it grudgingly, it would be okay? If a man left his wife on a Friday saying "dammit, I don't WANT to go kill the deer to make sure they don't starve, but I HAVE to" then you'd be cool with that? It's not the killing of the deer, cow, etc. that has you upset, but rather the lack of reluctance to do so? If Lib's dh HAD to thin the herd in order to be a responsible custodian, you'd be alright if he cried while doing it rather than enjoying the preparations and the whole process? I guess to me that just seems silly. I don't really LIKE mowing the lawn, but it has to be done so I've found ways to make it enjoyable for me. I know that's no comparison, really, but still. You think it's okay to use leather b/c at least you're sad about it?? Jen Date: 9:36 AM To: All From: TexKitty Add to FriendsIgnore Report as Violation Print Send to a Friend Bookmark 7686.76 A friend of mine sent this to me... what a bunch of dipshits. I'm glad the lion won. Serves them right. http://www.fmft.net/archives/BBC_NEWS.htm Lion Mutilates 42 Midgets in Cambodian Ring-Fight An African Lion much like this is responsible for the death of 28 Cambodian Midgets Spectators cheered as entire Cambodian Midget Fighting League squared off against African Lion Tickets had been sold-out three weeks before the much anticipated fight, which took place in the city of Kâmpóng Chhnãng. The fight was slated when an angry fan contested Yang Sihamoni, President of the CMFL, claiming that one lion could defeat his entire league of 42 fighters. Sihamoni takes great pride in the league he helped create, as was conveyed in his recent advertising campaign for the CMFL that stated his midgets will "... take on anything; man, beast, or machine." This campaign is believed to be what sparked the undisclosed fan to challenge the entire league to fight a lion; a challenge that Sihamoni readily accepted. An African Lion (Panthera Leo) was shipped to centrally located Kâmpóng Chhnãng especially for the event, which took place last Saturday, April 30, 2005 in the city’s coliseum. The Cambodian Government allowed the fight to take place, under the condition that they receive a 50% commission on each ticket sold, and that no cameras would be allowed in the arena. The fight was called in only 12 minutes, after which 28 fighters were declared dead, while the other 14 suffered severe injuries including broken bones and lost limbs, rendering them unable to fight back. Sihamoni was quoted before the fight stating that he felt since his fighters out-numbered the lion 42 to 1, that they “… could out-wit and out-muscle [it].” Unfortunately, he was wrong. KITTY Robert 12/04 Max 1/07 Date: 9:41 AM To: All From: Sam-n-Ella Add to FriendsIgnore Report as Violation Print Send to a Friend Bookmark 7686.77 Yes Jen, in a weird and twisted way, that's kind of what I'm saying. It has nothing to do with leather, abortion, eating meat, circuses, or deer population. It's the FUN aspect. FUN FUN FUN. People think it's FUN to hunt. THAT is what I don't get. I just don't think I can spell it out more clearly???? It's like banging my head on a freaking brick wall... Call me crazy and smack my patootie. And you know what I think is even WEIRDER? That nobody else thinks it's weird that it's considered a fun sport to kill animals. That's really bizarre to me. Now let's drop it and talk about that freaking midget story! Are you kidding me? Kitty is that for real?????? Laura Sam 12/31/04 Ella 12/14/07 Edited 9:41 AM by Sam-n-Ella Edited 9:54 AM by Sam-n-Ella Date: 10:05 AM To: All From: IrritableGrizzly Add to FriendsIgnore Report as Violation Print Send to a Friend Bookmark 7686.78 I think we're always going to be on different ends of this, and I'm okay with that. People are just different. I know the thread's wrapping down, but obviously, this thread kind of hit a nerve with me. Maybe because so much of what we eat, DH hunted. I think it makes us more aware, somehow, of exactly what we're consuming, than if most of our meat came shrink-wrapped from the supermarket. It was a nice feeling the other night, eating meat that he hunted and vegetables that we grew. Like someone else said, it's the whole hunting experience that my husband enjoys, not just the moment that he kills a deer. He thinks "hunting" is fun, not "killing." Killing is part of a successful hunt, obviously, but there's a lot more to it than that. He enjoys literally going out and providing for his family. He spends a lot of time and a lot of energy to do this and takes pride in it. I understand that some people don't get it, but I don't agree. I've got to say that it just seems like an elitist attitude to me - to be okay with eating meat or using leather products, as long as some unnamed person did the killing and didn't enjoy it. I don't think anyone would find it strange if I bought "Organic, free-range, locally produced venison" at, say, Whole Foods or something, paying a lot of money for it, but go out and actually kill the deer, be involved with the entire process from deer in forest to venison meatballs on the plate, and now you're considered weird. But Laura (and another PP, sorry, can't remember who), I get that you think it's weird. I don't agree with your POV, but I understand it. I don't think less of you for it, but I'll pass on smacking your patootie (maybe later, though). Date: 10:24 AM To: All From: hadtochangename Add to FriendsIgnore Report as Violation Print Send to a Friend Bookmark 7686.79 I've got to say that it just seems like an elitist attitude to me - to be okay with eating meat or using leather products, as long as some unnamed person did the killing and didn't enjoy it. Sorry, but I've got to agree. I don't understand it, Laura. I just don't. If you're going to have a cause, great! Just don't be half arsed about it. Jen Date: 10:28 AM To: All From: Sam-n-Ella Add to FriendsIgnore Report as Violation Print Send to a Friend Bookmark 7686.80 Oh whatever. Sigh. WaJen, you just don't get it. This has nothing to do with an animal rights cause. This is one thing. One very simple little idea. Elitist? Eh, I've been called worse. So did anyone snoped the midget story? I'm wondering if they killed the lion. And for what it's worth: I've got to say that it just seems like an elitist attitude to me - to be okay with eating meat or using leather products, as long as some unnamed person did the killing and didn't enjoy it. No I don't believe that. I- THINK-IT'S-WEIRD-THAT-PEOPLE-HUNT-FOR-FUN. Laura Sam 12/31/04 Ella 12/14/07 Edited 10:33 AM by Sam-n-Ella